Talk:The English Hymnal - Wiki Music Experiment/Lilypondguide

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Font Sizes

There's a lot of variation in font sizes. Here's a list of the possible places where text occurs, please indicate your opinion about how we should deal with them:

General Notes:

  • Let me start off this discussion. I am proposing default font sizes for everything except text within the music systems. This way, there will be the fewest decisions, and the fewest opportunities for discrepancies, and makes it easiest to achieve uniformity. It also means if the PPer wishes a different font size, he will at least find that he is changing all of one thing to all of one other thing. That is all A -> all Z is easier than A, B, C, D -> all Z
    • This "All defaults approach" - we'll call this proposal 1.


Reply by stygiania 19:04, 18 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Better to get this decided before we get too far. We'll already need to go back and double check what is done.
  • The ones I've done that are (Modern Tune) have that wording immediately following the Hymn number on the scanned page so I haven't used the Subtitle line for those. Leaving (Modern Tune) at default title size/style makes it very overpowering on the page. So far I've marked them as \large \smallCaps see 051.png or 057.png for example scans.
  • I assume smaller fonts occupy less vertical space as well as less horizontal space. Strictly standardizing could reduce our ability to make hymns fit to one page (orphaned Amen block problem).

Reply by ebykm 08:23, 19 May 2007

  • Removal of thin barline next to Choir Staff, Brace Staff-nobar.png on completed works.

All English Hymnal editions use almost without/very little space between. Staff-bar.png

  • Proper vertical spacing and tweaking(slanting angle, thickness, shape, etc..) of Slurs and Ties.

Reply by Jkenny 01:52, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • ebykm - we discussed this system start delimiter bar thing before, and Dani's (the Post-processor's) decision was that we leave the bar in. He can remove it later if he wants with a single command.
  • Slurs and ties - if it has to be done, it should be done now. Lilypond gives us lots of control and we can do as much or as little as we like. The dilemma is how much to do, and how much do we want to bloat the code (which as you say, is already enough to make your head spin). Imagine, 4-5 more lines per slur! I suggest we only do the critical adjustments like when a droopy tie seems to tie the wrong note together. Other fixes are a matter of end-user taste - some like slurs over the stems, some like them at the noteheads, so the end-users can fixed them at leisure.
    • I think it accords with the Proj. Gutenberg philosophy if we aim to pass the end-user a "living" code, which the end-user can understand, and is invited/at liberty to improve and adjust to his/her own taste. Hence for example:
      • we should put comments on our tweaks and macros to explain what we are doing
      • we put the music in 4-part SATB. It is easy for end-users to transpose, or to reset into 4 staffs.
      • Where we have to use an unusual font e.g. fraktur, we explain what we are doing, where to get the font etc, and make sure the context degrades gracefully to defaults for anyone who doesn't have the font.
      • Greek - we have put in transliterations beside the original.

  • Okay, back to fonts, taking Styg's idea about reducing space (and matching the image, how about this (call this Proposal 2)
    • stuff above the music (in the header), default sizes, except for subtitles next to the hymn number e.g. (Modern Tune) is set to \large (which makes it smaller than the hymn number.
    • stuff below the music: lyrics default, everything else \small. This is a best match to the image.
    • Strictly speaking, the stuff in the header could be \small too, but then the contrast with the hymn number would be too much. So I suggest we leave it to defaults.
    • I've tried this out on a few hymns and it looks fine.
    • One last wory - the hymn name in \sans looks larger than the "Theme" in Roman. What shall we do?

Reply by QMacrocarpa 08:10, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Thank you for setting this up-- great idea! I was hoping there was some way to hash this out without swamping the project forum.
  • Re: physical copies of the 1906 ed. (mentioned elsewhere), I have just requested one from my public library (has to come from another branch, so I won't get it right away).
  • Somehow I'm a bit resistant to the idea of taking headings that are all one size in the original and making them different sizes in our version (the \small only below the music idea).
  • I'm ok with all (small-looking) headings being \small or all of them NOT being \small though.
  • If we want all small-looking headings to be \small, but the hymn number then seems too large, could we try making it smaller too? Haven't tried this, just thinking out loud.
  • I'm ok with font-size standardization sometimes preventing us from fitting everything on a smaller number of pages. I know I bring up the question of fitting onto fewer pages a lot (comes from hanging around with other amateur musicians who often can't find page 2 to save their lives), but if it won't fit on fewer pages, it won't, no big deal.
  • About words in the music and amen block: can we establish standard settings for those too? Also size settings of amen block staff (including ones with plainsong)? The amen block clefs seem somewhat disproportionately tiny, but maybe there's no easily-set intermediate clef size? (in which case, fine, let's stick with the petite clefs)
  • Really, I don't care tremendously how we standardize the fonts, so if everyone else agrees that we should do it my least-favorite way (whatever that is!), that will be ok.
  • Drifting away from font-sizes for a moment, we should not hand-tweak every slur and tie. The current requirement of heroic efforts from the Lilyponders is already high enough (maybe even a bit higher than that). Sorting out font-sizes seems different: do it once and we should be done (I hope!), and it shouldn't add tremendous work to every piece going forward.

Reply by Jkenny 09:03, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Ref. your concern in 2 point and point 3. I have rendered it in what we shall call Proposal 3 - "All \small except lyrics".
  • Can everyone work off Hymn 35 "WER DA WONET" - it is not cleared yet and has most of the features.
    • In this Proposal 3, all the small looking text will be \small - tune name, meter, composer, source, title of lyrics, author of lyrics etc. Lyrics are default, Title and Theme are default. Subtitle will be default unless next to the title in which case it will be \large (Stygiania's method).
    • You can try playing around with the code -- just remove \small anywhere you see it, leaving the braces - it should still compile correctly.
    • About the Amen block, can I recommend everyone follow the code style used in Hymn 35. This uses a new code rather than set-staff-size. I need this style for plainsong Amens. In the image the plainsong amen staff is larger than the other corresponding staffs. That's good too, because then the clef does not become too small. The older #(layout-set-staff-size 5) method ropes in every staff the same, so I cannot vary the sizes.
    • Using this code, and a reduction of (magstep -2) (which means I think a reduction of 20%, we get these numbers:
      • On image Normal Staff 8mm Amen Staff 6mm
      • On PDF Normal Staff 4 "units" Amen Staff 3.2 "units"
      • (I enlarged my PDF and measured with a ruler which jedit provides. So I am not sure what "units" equals to in real life)
      • So the scaling looks correct.

Response from stygiania 13:40, 19 May 2007 (PDT) re: Hymn 35

  • I generally like the spacing/size on this Hymn.
  • I notice you used two lines of "meter" in the heading instead of poet and meter. Is that also an intended change? No problem either way--just asking.
  • We've been setting paper size as A4 (8.27" x 11.69"). I've been printing everything for Lily3 (so I can mark it up) on US standard 8.5" x 11". I wonder if there are some slight scaling differences based on paper size since what I use is slightly wider and shorter than what is encoded.
  • I can go either way on the Amen block. On the standard hymns it doesn't seem to make a visual difference . I can see your point about the plainsong though.
  • So I'm saying I really like Proposal 3 (so far). :-)

Response from QMacrocarpa 15:53, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • I'd be fine with these font sizes.
  • I'm not sure I understand what "Subtitle will be default unless next to the title in which case it will be \large (Stygiania's method)" means. Can you point me at a piece with an example of this (sorry if I'm just missing it in hymn 35)?
  • I like the size of the amen block clefs.
  • Should the text in parens next to the hymn number be in small-caps? It seems like that's what I've seen in the scans, but perhaps it varies. (I guess that "(Alternative)" text is just there in this piece for font-size demonstration purposes, right?)
  • I don't understand what 'two lines of "meter" instead of poet and meter' means.
  • Once everything font-ish is settled, maybe it would be useful to have one or two exemplar pieces stashed somewhere with all the elements we know of included-- headings above music, headings above lyrics, lyrics separately on the page, lyrics inline with music, amen block with "Amen", etc. Maybe one plainsong piece and one non-plainsong. Then those could be used for font and layout reference whenever questions arise. Or maybe this will already be accomplished with code snippets. Anyway, we should make it easy for new Lilyponders to find the specs.

"Speaking" again stygiania 18:52, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • On some scanned pages the words (Alternative Version) appear on a line below the hymn number. Those have been entered as a Subtitle and the default font seems to work fine for those. On other pages the words (Modern Tune) appear on the same line as the hymn number (which goes on the Title line in the header) and the default font for Title is much larger and darker so unless a smaller font size is specified, those words are overpowering and much larger than on the original.
  • Yes, the additional Title or Subtitle words are often in small caps. We would just match the original on that as we do for italics.
  • Poet and Meter are designated lines in the header block. The melody name and poetic meter {WER DA WONET. (D. L. M.)} have been listed in the Poet line on other songs and the {In moderate time crotchet = 144.} would be in the Meter line. For 087.png both of those have been assigned to separate lines under the heading of Meter. Each classification of item in the header block (dedication, title, subtitle, poet, composer, etc.) has a different default font size/style and placement.
  • I agree that once we get everything decided we will need some good templates. Being able to compare the code on here (and the resulting pdf) to the original pages has helped me learn far more about Lilypond than the Lilypond documentation pdf because it puts snippets into a comprehensive whole.

Replying Jkenny 19:25, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Great, there seems to be general agreement on Proposal 3 on the font sizes, shall we adopt this and go forward (We are 4%!)
  • Hymn subtitles: Stygiania has explained it. So we either code it as
 title = \markup { "35" \large \smallCaps "(Alternative)" }
 %%% where Alternative is on same line


 title = "35"
 subtitle = \markup { \smallCaps "(Alternative)" }
 %%% Alternative appears below hymn number

In both cases, the "Alternative" will come out the same size.

  • Poet, meter, ops, arranger...etc I think there is no need to standardize which fields to use. Just use whatever fields as needed to get the stuff on either side to line up. In general, the meter line lines up with the lowest line on the right side. (There are exceptions in the image - like the 'Rouen Church melody')
  • Paper size - I suggest we deliberately don't standardize. The diversity helps to check for problems endusers may encounter. We should make sure everything fits on both letter and A4, though.
  • Templates - I'll do up a few pieces of demo hymn codes with heavy comments and put them in front.
    • A "simple" hymn like 35
    • A complex hymn - with repeats, Fraktur etc
    • A plainsong hymn
  • Lastly, if everyone will trust me, I'll undertake to download the completed code, put in the standardizations, and re-upload. I generally won't touch the notation or the text, just putting in markup commands, so it should be quite "safe". I'll spend today on this and other maintenance work.

  • You have a big "thumbs up" from me on all of this! stygiania 14:06, 20 May 2007 (PDT)